Imperial is there because it's convenient to humans without tools.
Sometimes you need precision, sometimes you need accuracy, and sometimes you need both. For completeness I'll say that sometimes you need neither, perhaps politicians know more about this last part. Using Imperial measures makes this clear - do you really need to know how big your field is to the millimetre? To the centimetre? A foot will do.
My foot is, strangely (there's that British sarcasm again), a foot long. I can go into a field without tools and measure using my feet and be quite accurate.
I programmed Ruby for years and it was always said that it was designed to work for the human over the computer, Imperial is much the same, as were the things like pre-decimal currency (I don't want 12 eggs, can you sell me one? Easy when I've 240d to divide into, not so easy with 100 pence).
Use what's appropriate, don't wed yourself to decimal.
If your starting position is that eggs must be sold in sets of 12 only, then buying 1 will of course be more complex when using a base-10 currency.
But in the same way that we can't switch to driving on the other side of the road over the space of a week, the UK can't spend a half century or so half-arsedly failing to commit to the metric system, and then complain that things don't make as much sense as they seem to in 95% of the world.
Btw, is your foot precisely 12 inches, or is your shoe? I wonder, because it sounds dreadfully inconvenient to have to take your shoes and socks off when you want to measure a field. (I measure large distance by paces, which for me are roughly a metre.)
I know that my hand span is 22cm, which has occasionally been quite handy when I'm without a tape or rule, and want to roughly measure something -- but that's not a compelling reason for me to advocate a base-11 measuring system. : )
> Btw, is your foot precisely 12 inches, or is your shoe?
It doesn't matter because I'm not looking for a high level of precision when I do that kind of measuring, I'm looking for good enough not perfect. If physicists can handle this notion[1] even when they're the ones tasked with producing SI units I'm not sure why it's not applicable for the rest of us.
> APPROXIMATIONS
> Even though physicists usually try for a high degree of precision, there are times when only a close approximation is neeed. Physicists some times make rough estimates for making tentative decisions.
Sounds like a decent principle to me.
> then complain that things don't make as much sense as they seem to in 95% of the world
It's not Brits that are complaining as we get to choose the measure that suits the aims at the time. If centimetres are appropriate then use centimetres. If feet and inches are better, use that. Do you write all your software in C? Better hope WASM takes off or your competitor using that nasty Javascript will remain ahead.
No, it's the "95%" measuring their height in centimetres (why not millimetres?;) or buying litres of milk that inconvenience themselves while complaining about measures they don't understand because they blind themselves to the advantages. Good sold in Britain have both measures on everything, we're committed, just not dogmatic about it.
a) physicists are not 'tasked with producing SI units'
b) you can have a non-high level of precision with metric as easily as with imperial
c) corollary: metric is not perfect - no one is trying to assert that
d) 'we get to choose the measure that suits the aims at the time' - yes, that sounds like Britain. Let's see how that plays out over the next 5 years.
e) 'if feet and inches are better, use that'. Better?
f) actually, this needs fully quoting:
> No, it's the "95%" measuring their height in centimetres (why not millimetres?;) or buying litres of milk that inconvenience themselves while complaining about measures they don't understand because they blind themselves to the advantages. Good sold in Britain have both measures on everything, we're committed, just not dogmatic about it.
Let's recalibrate:
i) it's not "95%" -- it's 95%. 7.59b people on the planet and 320m in USA, 4m in Liberia, 50m in Burma -- you could throw in the recalcitrants in the UK, but we're still rounding to about 5% of the planet that isn't on metric.
ii) people that use metric are allowed to use centimetres and millimetres .. and metres, decimetres, kilometres. All is good, sensible, easy to transition between by shifting the decimal point. I'm 187cm / 1.87m / 1870mm tall. With shoes on, add 2cm (but no need to adjust the length of the field I'm stepping out).
iii) I don't get the inconvenience of buying a litre of milk ... ?
iv) committed but not dogmatic - what a wonderfully British phrasing. We kind of get it, but we demand to reserve our right to randomly claim exceptionalism, for reasons that can't be described, defined, or defended.
This whole thread is an exercise in pedantry - and that's okay, we tend to revel in analysis of the minutia here.
Whether a holder of a British passport could be called xenophobic about the British, especially when making a comment about the regrettable decision by the British to remove themselves from the EU - well, it seems a bold claim to make.
I genuinely am wildly fascinated to see what happens as the Brexit catastrophe unfolds.
I'll admit that I was mildly frustrated by your apparent unwillingness to engage on the much more interesting discussion to be had around the flaws in your argument.
I've once heard the base 12/base 60 system is derived from how people used to count with their fingers long ago:
1 hand has a thumb and four other fingers, each consisting of 3 parts. So you point with your thumb to one of these 3 times 4=12 parts.
If you run out of numbers, you take your other hand an put up a finger, then start counting from 1 with the other hand again. 5 fingers give you 5 times 12=60 possible combinations.
No idea why they didn't do the thumb + 12 positions stuff with the other hand, which would have given 12 times 12=144 possibilities. Speculation: Maybe there was no need as such high numbers didn't appear in practice?.
Base 60 was used by the babylonians. They were big into astrological observations, and so I think their influence affected time and angle calculations.
The numbers 12, 60 and 360 that occur in our time and angle calculations are interestingly factorials divided by 2. (4! = 24, 5! = 120, 6! = 720).
Since larger factorials have both 2 and 4 as factors, they have 2^3 as part of their factorisation, and by the time you get to 6! you introduce another factor of 2, so it's not a big loss dropping one of those power of 2, you still have a huge range of factors and hence ease when working with fractions with these numbers.
Attempts to replace degrees with base 10 (gradians) appears to be slow on the uptake, with radians being a more natural measurement (but who wants irrational angles in everyday life) so I think we're stuck with degrees.
There was an attempt to replace 24h system by 10h system around the same time metric system was introduced (French Republican Revolution), as a part of (much better, IMO) French Republican Calendar. Unfortunately, it didn't gain enough momentum and was cancelled after not so long.
Babylonians inherited base-60 from sumerians. AFAIK, there is no real consensus why exactly it was base-60 with sumerians. One hypothesis is exactly what hyperman1 is telling us. Also, don't quote me on that, but I seem to remember hearing that 360° might have been introduced not because of divisibility specifically, but because of the size of the sun. Not sure how plausible is that, but, notably, angular diameter of the sun is ≈0.5°. So I might believe it is related, but if I'm not mistaken 5/12/60-numeric systems seem to be much older than 360°.
Interesting, but the fact that a sequence of finger positions indicates a number sounds risky in a blink and you get the wrong result kind of way.
When we travelled to China years ago we were advised to learn the one-handed 1-10 gestures[1] which we were assured was in common use there, and solves one of the basic problems of asking for specific quantities of things without language.
I guess that if you had an agreed endian (LSH / MSH?) you could represent all integers from 0-110 in a single two-handed gesture.
Obviously, with 10 fingers, you could also represent 0-1023 by holding up various digits - and that's needing only two states per finger. How quickly or easily others would be able to read that representation is a different question. Plus most of us would need some training exercises to recover finger independence of pinky and ring.
The metric system is everywhere in Britain. Brexit was about returning to and retaining common law, as Roger Scuton so eloquently lays out in this speech.
I wonder if he'd lived, he'd have changed his opinion from 4 years ago, given the dogs breakfast that is the current transition process, run by a non-representative collection of opportunists.
I did watch the video you shared, btw, but I didn't feel his argument was especially persuasive.
With ~45 years or EEC/EC/EU membership to refer to, there were zero examples offered where this ostensible move away from common law had actually manifested, let alone in a negative way.
Actually, I thought his position seemed to be the standard nebulously nostalgic nationalism.
I don't recall common law being a talking point in any of the leave / remain discussions and marketing. Cameron originally couched the question purely around economics -- which unfortunately made the public debate, such as it was, vulnerable to grossly influential outright lies around money. The famous '£350m a week’ lie, f.e.
This then seemed to morph (or was manufactured) into some kind of national identity existential crisis.
Well, you can't say you don't have a tool while bringing a tool. My foot is a lot (!) bigger than yours, so that argument doesn't hold.
> Using Imperial measures makes this clear - do you really need to know how big your field is to the millimetre? To the centimetre? A foot will do.
Yes, also a meter will do.
> but ... but ... how exactly long is a meter?
Well, again, my foot is bigger than yours. Others are smaller. They'll do, too, right?
Point is, who cares if you are off by a couple of meters/foots/whatever if you are just looking for an estimate? But using foots, arms, pumpkins or cat tails for length seems way too ambiguous. A meter, while seemingly synthetic to people not familiar with the metric system, can be used just as good with all the advantages it brings. Yes, it requires to get an idea of its size. Well, but so does your foot or whatever randomly by nature generated object you use for measurement.
> Well, you can't say you don't have a tool while bringing a tool.
I like that but let's try to keep to the principle of charity and accept that we're using words in the normal way, so I can say that I don't have a tool because it's not normal to refer to your foot as a tool.
> My foot is a lot (!) bigger than yours, so that argument doesn't hold.
In what way does you knowing that your foot is not a foot long undermine an argument about accuracy vs precision?
> A meter, while seemingly synthetic to people not familiar with the metric system, can be used just as good with all the advantages it brings.
When did I argue against using metres? I must say it's a bit frustrating to have several responses that are so binary in nature. If I suggest Javascript for frontend website work does that invalidate using something else if appropriate? Am I arguing against strongly typed, pre-compiled languages in general? If you didn't know JS but did know Rust might you be justified in choosing WASM?
Imperial measures have their place, as do metric ones.
> In what way does you knowing that your foot is not a foot long undermine an argument about accuracy vs precision?
I know people whose feet are barely half as long as mine. So what exactly am I or others supposed to use as a foot unit? Something in between or rather towards the smaller feet? Tell a native Dutch person to use like two thirds only while telling some native Asian to use more like 1.3 foot as a foot? And on top of that not even their their own but the average of each, because you don't want to get it wrong by a factor of two? Yeah, who cares if it's 100 foot or 200 foot. Accuracy, right? A meter is easy to remember or to guess with a lot less variation. And if you are fancy enough, you could use a scale for example to get it accurate. A lot of other things actually, too. The magic of definition and derivation. But I am sure a foot can also be derived from Spanish tomatos or something.
> analogy to programming
How many foot is the circumference of the average straw man?
But metric is perfectly fine without tools. Your foot is about 30cm. Instead of a pound you use half a kilo. And you can still express your measurements as coarsely as you'd like in it, even more easily because it's all decimal, so you can just chop off or add the significant digits if you like. You can, for example, say that your field is 1.155 kilometers long, which is 1155m - even coarser than a foot. Want more accuracy? You can say it's 1.1551 kilometers or 1155.1 meters long, your accuracy is now better than a foot, but same order of magnitude. A field that's a kilometer by a kilometer in size has a million square meters in it, or 100 hectares, each hectare being 10000m2.
Now quick, without googling, how many square feet (let alone inches) are there in a field that's a mile by a mile in size? If you manage that with some effort, how many acres? Protip: it's not even an integer number.
Also BTW, eggs are also sold in 10s in at least some metric countries.
> Also BTW, eggs are also sold in 10s in at least some metric countries.
I know because I have to buy them and it means I'm left with one left over every time. 12 eggs works for an individual, a couple, and a family of 3 or 4, and for more combinations of portion than 10 does.
> Want more accuracy? You can say it's 1.1551 kilometers or 1155.1 meters long, your accuracy is now better than a foot
That's precision, not accuracy.
> Now quick, without googling…
I already know it's a mile squared, why do I care about how many square feet there are? That's the point, you choose the measure that is appropriate, without knowing the aim how can you choose a measure?
“How big's that field?”
“A mile by a mile”
"Wow. Can I have some eggs, please?”
“Well, I've only got 10's. I hope you have exact change…”
> 12 eggs works for an individual, a couple, and a family of 3
That's only if your S.O. and kid eat the same number of eggs as you, which is not the case for me, I eat one more than they do, and 10 would work better. :-)
> That's precision, not accuracy.
That's pedantry. You understand what I meant: there's no difference between the systems in this regard.
> why do I care about how many square feet there are
Say you're applying fertilizer and its application rate is quoted in ounces per square foot (ewww).
Then you just use meters, and learn to stride a meter. My Dad used to be a farmer in the UK, born in the 50s so knows the imperial system very well. He could fairly accurately measure a field in meters by walking up it. Could also do it by sight.
Walking one foot in front of the other as so much slower than taking a stride.
When I was in school I could do 50 m within one meter. Haven't tried for a while now but I do use steps now and then to measure things if the exactness isn't important.
Archers learn to measure by sight though, they have a few tricks since they aren't allowed any sort of help.
Measuring distance by walking is pretty common, but I don't think making strides of 1 m is common, lol. Usual stride is about 0.7-0.8 m, 1 m is pretty huge and uncomfortable unless you are really tall with long legs. You just know what is your average stride and do the calculations. I've never seen any country folks do distance measurement by placing their feet one in front of the other. So, yeah, I guess only people who do that must be huge fans of imperial system with (quite uncommon) foot length of 1 imperial foot.
hill walkers and mountaineers are taught to measure distances with strides. Once you know how many steps / strides a distance is, you can measure quite accurately. Others can also start measuring distances once there is a known distance marked.
In addition, Nainsmith's rule (dating from 1892) is still used to this day - to estimate time to travel certain distances.
I think you are confusing what you are used to vs. what is easier to learn & work with. Maybe you do have a size 47 shoe (eu metrics) but most people have feet that are significantly smaller than a foot typically by about 20-30%. I'm pretty sure that was even more true when feet were first used as measurements.
Historically, the way people measured things just wasn't very accurate until requirements for that became more precise around the 16th and 17th century and we figured out how to use precisely calibrated instruments rather than misc appendages. This is roughly when people figured out how to build clocks, Newton sat down and wrote up a thing or two about physics, and we started mapping the world in a bit more detail than "here be dragons", etc.
Precision engineering emerged during the industrial revolution. Once people started worrying about tolerances of less than a tenth of a millimeter, it kind of required consistency to get any kind of repeatable results. This required standardization. This happened late 18th century. Of course there were several competing standards.
The reason feet and miles are still around was the historical disagreement between the French and the British over lots of things (including territory). Particularly at that time when they were in each other's hair pretty much all the time. So the British came up with their own set of standards and Napoleon imposed the metric system on most of Europe. The US of course had its own set of disagreements with both the British and the French around that time and felt it needed its own standards. Hence it kind of matters whose miles, feet, gallons, pounds, pints, and what not we are talking about since there are some notable differences. Also, this changed over time. E.g. the US mile was last redefined in 1983, though not unanimously (from wikipedia):
"The United States redefined its yard in 1893, and this resulted in U.S. and Imperial measures of distance having very slightly different lengths.
The North American Datum of 1983 (NAD83), which replaced the NAD27, is defined in metres. State Plane Coordinate Systems were then updated, but the National Geodetic Survey left individual states to decide which (if any) definition of the foot they would use. All State Plane Coordinate Systems are defined in metres, and 42 of the 50 states only use the metre-based State Plane Coordinate Systems. However, eight states also have State Plane Coordinate Systems defined in feet, seven of them in U.S. Survey feet and one in international feet.[77]
"
It seems the issue is highly political; which is weird for an engineering topic.
> I think you are confusing what you are used to vs. what is easier to learn & work with.
I studied physics, schools have taught metric since at least the 1980's as part of the standard curriculum, and all goods in Britain are sold with at least metric on them. It's got nothing to do with what I'm used to as I'm more used to metric. I simply have nothing against Imperial measures because the arguments used against them are mostly absurd and they're actually useful.
> It seems the issue is highly political; which is weird for an engineering topic.
Your foot is approximately a foot long. My stride is approximately 1 metre. Both are valid ways of roughly gauging distance, but only one is a sane system of measurement.
And by the way, all imperial units are now defined in metric, which makes the conversion doubly insane.
It doesn't matter which prices you choose, old money will always outperform decimal because it has more factors. There are advantages and disadvantages to both but quibbling about the price of eggs isn't going to change them.
No, 240 new pence has exactly the same number of factors as 240 old pence. You're aware that you're not required to always use a whole number of pounds, right? Because you seem a tad confused.
You liked the egg example until I pointed out how daft it was. Ah, the fickleness of youth!
The currency is the pound, not the penny. It would be daft to think the basis of comparison was the penny and it would also be daft to lose money on each transaction because you couldn't receive all the change owed you, something more likely to happen when you have less factors available due to less subdivisions and/or a different choice of base.
It's also not going to matter only at the point a dozen eggs is a pound, but this is well off the original point and I'm not interested in a position that, strangely enough, means decimalisation has no impact. 240 pennies is 240 pennies, after all.
For what it's worth, eggs are sold in boxes of 6, 10, 12 or 15 in British supermarkets. The price on the shelf (or in grey text on the site below) must give the price per egg.
Actually, I think 10 is the most common not only in Germany, but about everywhere. There are usually several sizes, I sure saw 6, 10, 12 & 18, but I guess 10 eggs is the most common wherever I tried to buy eggs. I didn't really pay close attention, though.
Sometimes you need precision, sometimes you need accuracy, and sometimes you need both. For completeness I'll say that sometimes you need neither, perhaps politicians know more about this last part. Using Imperial measures makes this clear - do you really need to know how big your field is to the millimetre? To the centimetre? A foot will do.
My foot is, strangely (there's that British sarcasm again), a foot long. I can go into a field without tools and measure using my feet and be quite accurate.
I programmed Ruby for years and it was always said that it was designed to work for the human over the computer, Imperial is much the same, as were the things like pre-decimal currency (I don't want 12 eggs, can you sell me one? Easy when I've 240d to divide into, not so easy with 100 pence).
Use what's appropriate, don't wed yourself to decimal.